Comments on: Vague demands and “honesty” http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/ Explorations in evolving the understanding, living, and teaching of Nonviolent Communication Sun, 17 Mar 2019 07:58:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.5 By: Niklas http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-204 Niklas Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:48:49 +0000 http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/#comment-204 It's an honor :-) It’s an honor :-)

]]> By: conal http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-197 conal Fri, 21 Mar 2008 03:48:36 +0000 http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/#comment-197 <blockquote> I heard once that the benefit of jackals is that they know very well when a need is not met, they're fast and energetic. The problem comes at the clarity level. They know THAT a need isn't being met but not WHICH specifically and therefore they don't see other possibilities of meeting it. </blockquote> Wow -- I'd never heard this insight before. Thanks, Niklas!

I heard once that the benefit of jackals is that they know very well when a need is not met, they’re fast and energetic. The problem comes at the clarity level. They know THAT a need isn’t being met but not WHICH specifically and therefore they don’t see other possibilities of meeting it.

Wow — I’d never heard this insight before. Thanks, Niklas!

]]> By: Niklas http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-196 Niklas Fri, 21 Mar 2008 03:37:30 +0000 http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/#comment-196 Yes it does. I like your clarity about my definition of a demand being actually a test. I agree. And I also understand your point about modeling vague demands and calling them "needs". I get from it, that you'd like trainers to provide more clarity about what lies behind e.g. "That doesn’t meet my need for respect!" so that the beauty of the need and all its various other possibilities to get met is revealed. I heard once that the benefit of jackals is that they know very well when a need is not met, they're fast and energetic. The problem comes at the clarity level. They know THAT a need isn't being met but not WHICH specifically and therefore they don't see other possibilities of meeting it. So what is needed there is more clarity and maybe more empathy to provide a space for clarity. And I'm in agreement with you that I wouldn't want NVC-students to miss this opportunity. Yes it does. I like your clarity about my definition of a demand being actually a test. I agree. And I also understand your point about modeling vague demands and calling them “needs”. I get from it, that you’d like trainers to provide more clarity about what lies behind e.g. “That doesn’t meet my need for respect!” so that the beauty of the need and all its various other possibilities to get met is revealed.
I heard once that the benefit of jackals is that they know very well when a need is not met, they’re fast and energetic. The problem comes at the clarity level. They know THAT a need isn’t being met but not WHICH specifically and therefore they don’t see other possibilities of meeting it. So what is needed there is more clarity and maybe more empathy to provide a space for clarity. And I’m in agreement with you that I wouldn’t want NVC-students to miss this opportunity.

]]> By: conal http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-191 conal Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:30:02 +0000 http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/#comment-191 Hi Niklas. Thanks for the comments. <blockquote> at the time the person says "That doesn't meet my need for fairness" no demand is made. Not even a request is made. What I think you mean, Conal, is that you expect it to be a demand. I stick to the definition of a demand, which says that the only way to find out, whether it is a demand or a request, is to see what happens, if you say no. </blockquote> Perhaps you & I have different understandings here. What you've called "the definition of a demand", I describe as <em>a test for a demand</em>. (And, by the way, I like that test very much.) I don't think I've heard Marshall define "demand". A definition might be "attachment to strategy". Marshall's "say no and watch" test is a way for that demand (attachment) to become visible. As I said in <a href=/posts/vague-demands/ rel="nofollow">Distinguishing needs from vague demands</a>, <blockquote> For instance, "That doesn't meet my need for respect" directed with anger at another person, as if the other person should be meeting that need for the speaker. Or directed in fear, as if the other person is in any way necessary for the fulfillment of the need. </blockquote> The fear or anger directed at another person <em>is</em> the response to "no" (acted rather than spoken), i.e., what happens when that person doesn't support the expected strategy. It's a gripping onto the strategy, instead of opening into the universe of possibilities. For instance, "That doesn't meet my need for respect!" might translate to "I'm attached to using you in meeting my need for self-respect. I'm afraid I won't find a way without using your help, and I mad at you for not making it easy for me." I like what you have to say about freeing yourself from the other person's criticism, and focusing on what really affects you, which is whether you match their criticism of you with your own. I'm with you there. The reason I raise the issue of vague demands is that I regularly see <em>teachers</em> of NVC modeling vague demands and calling them "needs", and I'm concerned about their students missing the heart of NVC Consciousness and instead learning a language that obscures the consciousness and practice of attachment and coercion. I prefer jackals to be out in the open. Does this additional explanation shift your understanding of vague demands, as I've described them? Hi Niklas. Thanks for the comments.

at the time the person says “That doesn’t meet my need for fairness” no demand is made. Not even a request is made. What I think you mean, Conal, is that you expect it to be a demand. I stick to the definition of a demand, which says that the only way to find out, whether it is a demand or a request, is to see what happens, if you say no.

Perhaps you & I have different understandings here. What you’ve called “the definition of a demand”, I describe as a test for a demand. (And, by the way, I like that test very much.) I don’t think I’ve heard Marshall define “demand”. A definition might be “attachment to strategy”. Marshall’s “say no and watch” test is a way for that demand (attachment) to become visible.

As I said in Distinguishing needs from vague demands,

For instance, “That doesn’t meet my need for respect” directed with anger at another person, as if the other person should be meeting that need for the speaker. Or directed in fear, as if the other person is in any way necessary for the fulfillment of the need.

The fear or anger directed at another person is the response to “no” (acted rather than spoken), i.e., what happens when that person doesn’t support the expected strategy. It’s a gripping onto the strategy, instead of opening into the universe of possibilities. For instance, “That doesn’t meet my need for respect!” might translate to “I’m attached to using you in meeting my need for self-respect. I’m afraid I won’t find a way without using your help, and I mad at you for not making it easy for me.”

I like what you have to say about freeing yourself from the other person’s criticism, and focusing on what really affects you, which is whether you match their criticism of you with your own. I’m with you there. The reason I raise the issue of vague demands is that I regularly see teachers of NVC modeling vague demands and calling them “needs”, and I’m concerned about their students missing the heart of NVC Consciousness and instead learning a language that obscures the consciousness and practice of attachment and coercion. I prefer jackals to be out in the open.

Does this additional explanation shift your understanding of vague demands, as I’ve described them?

]]> By: Niklas http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-189 Niklas Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:25:26 +0000 http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/#comment-189 I'm not sure how much this helps, but in reference to vague demands I'd like to point out, that at the time the person says "That doesn’t meet my need for fairness" no demand is made. Not even a request is made. What I think you mean, Conal, is that you expect it to be a demand. I stick to the definition of a demand, which says that the only way to find out, whether it is a demand or a request, is to see what happens, if you say no. You can test this. If the person is reacting by criticism, moralistic judgment, threat of punishment or actual punishment you can say that it was actually a demand. The neat thing is that if YOU yourself are connected to your own needs and don't take the response personally by making a story about your self-worth out of it, you won't hear a demand. Because you won't demand it of yourself. You won't join into the exterior criticism by interior criticism. And whether you do or not is really your responsibility. If you make a different choice, it will give you the chance to hear the actual fear behind the other person's demand. And then you can inquire further about the other person's intent, without having to react. This is empathy. And by using empathy you clarify what's actually going on for the other person and what specifically can be done about it, with or without you. Does this make sense? I’m not sure how much this helps, but in reference to vague demands I’d like to point out, that at the time the person says “That doesn’t meet my need for fairness” no demand is made. Not even a request is made. What I think you mean, Conal, is that you expect it to be a demand. I stick to the definition of a demand, which says that the only way to find out, whether it is a demand or a request, is to see what happens, if you say no. You can test this. If the person is reacting by criticism, moralistic judgment, threat of punishment or actual punishment you can say that it was actually a demand.
The neat thing is that if YOU yourself are connected to your own needs and don’t take the response personally by making a story about your self-worth out of it, you won’t hear a demand. Because you won’t demand it of yourself. You won’t join into the exterior criticism by interior criticism. And whether you do or not is really your responsibility. If you make a different choice, it will give you the chance to hear the actual fear behind the other person’s demand. And then you can inquire further about the other person’s intent, without having to react. This is empathy. And by using empathy you clarify what’s actually going on for the other person and what specifically can be done about it, with or without you.

Does this make sense?

]]> By: The Hollosphere » Blog Archive » Connecting with NVC Consciousness: It’s Not in the Words http://nvc-evolves.org/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/comment-page-1/#comment-94 The Hollosphere » Blog Archive » Connecting with NVC Consciousness: It’s Not in the Words Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:49:52 +0000 http://evolve.awakeningcompassion.com/posts/vague-demands-and-honesty/#comment-94 [...] searching! Just because we can point to a “need” (like mutuality or consideration or honesty, eek) on an official needs list somewhere doesn’t mean it’s going to help nurture the [...] [...] searching! Just because we can point to a “need” (like mutuality or consideration or honesty, eek) on an official needs list somewhere doesn’t mean it’s going to help nurture the [...]

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